Sodium Metasilicate

[klickcue]

If one were to look at the msds for PBW
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/msds/pbw.pdf , one would notice that the main ingredient is Sodium Metasilicate.

One can buy Red Devil TSP90 at Ace Hardware for $10 / 4# = $2.50 per pound. TSP90 is Sodium Metasilicate.

Here is the msds for Oxyclean
http://www.melrosechem.com/english/msd_eng/hs0853.pdf
Ace Hardware sells Oxyclean in a 6# pail for $15 = $2.50 per pound.

I cleaned 6-1 gallon glass jugs of which some ranged back into the 1960s when Coke syrup was shipped in glass, (remember those days?). Some of the jugs had fermentation sludge from grapes that had turned to vinegar and other fine things. The jugs are now sparkling clean.

The formula that was used, 1 part TSP90 ? 2 parts Oxyclean by weight.

The jugs where so bad that 3 tablespoons of the above mixture to a gallon of warm water was left to soak. The reaction was complete in 1 hour and a brush was not used on the crud.

[Jensen]

I heard something on one of those darn podcasts... hmm, I'll have to re-check those listenings, but there was something in PBW & Bar Keeper's
Friend-- that actually "tempered" stainless steel with an oxidative coating that was a very beneficial coating to the surface. Other cleaners do not have this property to them. Could possibly leave stainless vulnerable to eventual pitting. Of course on glass, it would not matter... I'll do some ipod scanning to see if I can find it. OX*.* something sounding kinda compound....

[klickcue]

What to watch out for is the Sodium Hypochlorite (bleach). Though dry in OxyClean but in fairly low concentrations, Bleach will attach stainless steel. What bleach does is allow stainless steel to rust and pit.

Not a problem with glass. It did an excellent job on cleaning the jugs.

The TSP could be used in stainless steel without a problem.

[Jensen]

This would be a good show to listen to on this topic, there a a few others that I'll find on future walks with my beagle while scrolling through the ipod:

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew ... 8-Cleaning


.

[shane]

I think you should look into using the oxy-free, no bleach or soap.....

[Bill]

I think you should look into using the oxy-free, no bleach or soap.....

There is also a cheap version from WalMart called Sun Oxygen cleaner. Last time I bought it I believe it was $1.89 for a 1# container. Same ingredient list as Oxyclean if I remember right, and bleach/perfume free to boot.
Since I got in on the bulk PBW buy, I haven't needed to purchase anything else for quite some time so the price may have gone up.

[klickcue]

Thanks Bill,

I will look for the Sun product when I am in need of some more chlorinated/phosphate cleaner. Whether we as home brewer know it or not, chlorinated/phosphate cleaners are used a lot in the professional brewing factories. I am using my formula on glass, not stainless steel.

What chlorine does is remove the chromium oxide that protects stainless steel. The only way to get it back is to passivate the surface again. There are several way to passivate stainless steel, passivate is also known as pickling in the chemical industry. The one that I am most familiar with is to use strong nitric acid. I worked a strong nitric, sulfuric acid plant for 7 years which has a lot of 316, 304, 304L and other neat metal. After welding was done on the stainless steel piping, the exterior was polished with an aluminum oxide wheel and the inside was pickled with strong nitric. Since most of us cannot get nitric acid, the easiest way to clean stainless is with aluminum oxide sandpaper or a Scotch Brite pad (Scotch Brite contains aluminum oxide embedded in the nylon. Once the stainless steel is bright, the oxygen in the air will passivate the stainless steel, it rusts it to form chromium oxide which is different from oxygen and iron pipe which is iron oxide. By the way, don't put stainless steel and iron together.

Other things of interest. Strong 99.9 percent nitric acid can been stored in an aluminum tank because the nitric pickles the tank to form aluminum oxide. But, if the concentration of the nitric acid drops to about 70 percent, it will remove the aluminum oxide and dissolve the aluminum. Chlorine will remove the oxide as well as sodium hydroxide (lye).

Sodium hydroxide is an interesting chemical. It will dissolve aluminum with great heat. It loves lipids (fats) so it is an excellent cleaner. It can be mixed with fat to create what we know as soap. Soap is different from detergent. There are a lot of lipids in the crud from boiling wort with hops. The hops has oils and fats and the grain also has fats... corn oil, soybean oil, flax oil, sunflower oil etc.

Strong chlorine liquid can be pumped through steel pipe, but as a gas it will dissolve the steel. Glass or Teflon for gas.

Basically, what soap and detergents do is act as a surfactant. What a surfactant does is break down the surface tension of an object. The best know solvent in the world is called water, the other solvent is alcohol or petroleum. With a surfactant, the cleaning chemical we dissolve in water has a better chance of reaching the surface of the dirty carboy.

Interesting stuff. Know the material and crud and cleaning is a lot easier.

[fergmeister]

Don't put stainless and iron togethe. What's the problem?
Chuck

[klickcue]

You basically make a battery. If the iron fitting breaks through the chromium oxide the iron in the stainless steel rusts, causing pitting. With the acidic nature of the wort acts like an electrolyte and causes a corrosion zone.

Didn't explain that very well, but if your stainless steel starts to rust from steel or iron contamination, the stainless steel will have to be pickled again.

[fergmeister]

I do understand that relationship. Problems I've encountered are where my kettle sits on the stand, outdoors, on concrete, in the rain, the rust coming off of the steel bed frames sticks pretty well to the rim (contact point) of the kettle. Also in trying to be fancy and polishing/descaring the keg and using a typical metal silicate grinding wheel or sanding disk the whole exterior of the keg began to rust. Passification of the surface with bar keepers friend removed the rust but it reappeared. Not so good. After correspondence with John Palmer he suggested rubbiing it down with grapefruit juice or concentrated nitric acid. The nitric acid worked with repeat applications, but it is very dangerous to handle. Funny what you learn in this hobby.
Chuck

[klickcue]

Do you have another kettle or piece of stainless steel to live in the same environment as your brew kettle?

The nitric acid should have pickled (rusted) the surface to chromium oxide. The abrasive material, as long as it doesn't contain steel/iron to embed into the surface should have been fine. Once treated with an acid or exposed to the oxygen in the air, the stainless steel should passivate.

If I remember correctly, Bar Keeper Friend contains Oxalic Acid which is a good thing for stainless steel. For beer stone and general cleaning of my stainless steel kettle, I like to use warm White Vinegar. It is amazing how well the crud removes with White Vinegar and repassivates at the same time.

I am curious from the opening paragraph if your kettle is made from 200 stainless steel which I do not believe contains chrome/nickel in it's formula.

If your kettle is 200 stainless steel, it might be best to keep it dry and away from iron. Some 200 stainless steels do have resistance to rusting but not all.

[Rob Martin]

Using my keggle for the first time, we cranked the heat as high as it will go. I now understand not to do that. But, I currently have a significant burnt wort on the bottom of my kettle. I was planning on using a homemade version of PBW on it, but reading some of these posts, it seems that is not a good idea.

Any suggestions on how to remove the crud?

[klickcue]

Assuming the kettle is not aluminum since you would a reaction, I would use lye (sodium hydroxide). You can purchase Red Devil at Ace Hardware or at least they use to carry it.

For strength, it would be trial and error. I would start with 2 tablespoons per quart of water and let it soak and see if the wort softens up.

Be safe and don't get the caustic solution on your body or in your eyes.

Just like acid, add the caustic to water so as not to get a violent reaction.

If you do not feel comfortable with the chemical, don't do it.

Lye dissolves organics which is also your body!

Lye is also used in oven cleaners.

[Steve Brown]

Hey Rob,

Having scorched that batch a while back, I did a bunch of reading on removing the caramelized wort.... What I ended up doing is boiling hydrogen peroxide in my kettle. (Do NOT breathe the fumes!) It took a couple of boiling sessions of just a few minutes, but I had a layer more than 1/16th inch thick over about a third of the bottom of my brew kettle. I boiled the H2O2 for a few minutes, then just let it soak in and cool down overnight. The scorched wort just pealed up in a big sheet. I used the 3% that you can get anywhere; I read that you can buy 20% H2O2 at beauty supply stores and it would work even better.

[Rob Martin]

The kettle is a stainless steel keggle. After reading an old Zymurgy magazine along with Chris' post, I sprayed some old oven cleaner on it and let it set for about 2 hours. While that did work a little, I also ended up using some steel wool. Wasn't real excited about doing that, but I wanted it off before our next brew which will be a Pils. Didn't want old carmelization in my Pils. I eventually did get it off. Oven cleaner can possible react with stainless, so to stop any further issues, I then washed it with vinegar (from the article) and then washed the vinegar off with dish soap.