All grain troubleshoot

[Pentaquark]

Hopheads,

I completed my second all-grain batch this weekend but I ended up with a severely low OG and would like some help troubleshooting what I potentially did wrong.

I was attempting a NB all-grain kit with 13.25 lbs of milled grain. With a W/G ratio of 1.5, I added my ~20 gal of hot water to attempt to hit the target temp of 151. Unfortunately, I went over and it plateaued at 156. So, I just left the top off to help it cool and mixed it a few times. At the 60 min mash mark, the temp was 149. I do not have any tincture of iodine so I didn't perform the conversion test. I then had a 10 min mash out at 168 which I hit spot on. I drained off the wort, boiled, cooled, and ended up with a final G of 1.042 when the kit had a suggested OG of 1.064 and even BeerSmith had estimated 1.060.

There are several points that I assume I did wrong but would like more detailed pointers.

1. I didn't make the 151 temp initially. But would 5 degrees high make this drastic of a difference? Would high temps even cause this issue?
2. I didn't sparge. There didn't seem to be room in the water calculations. In retrospect, I should have started with a lower W/G ratio and sparged. How many points would that have changed things?
3. I am unsure how the mill of the grain affects things. I talked with Jake over at JWL (who milled my grain, thank-you-very-much) and he said he had recently opened up the spacing of his mill a little more. How am I to tell if the grain is milled enough? After digging through my grainbed, I noticed some (not many) of the barley was even untouched. Is there a danger in over milling as opposed to under?

So with these issues, is there a recommended way of raising the gravity of the beer before my yeast really takes off? I was just hoping for a little more booze in this batch.

Thanks in advance, I know this is a lot to process but I sincerely appreciate any help.

Allen

[Frank]

1. I didn't make the 151 temp initially. But would 5 degrees high make this drastic of a difference? Would high temps even cause this issue?
2. I didn't sparge. There didn't seem to be room in the water calculations. In retrospect, I should have started with a lower W/G ratio and sparged. How many points would that have changed things?
3. I am unsure how the mill of the grain affects things. I talked with Jake over at JWL (who milled my grain, thank-you-very-much) and he said he had recently opened up the spacing of his mill a little more. How am I to tell if the grain is milled enough? After digging through my grainbed, I noticed some (not many) of the barley was even untouched. Is there a danger in over milling as opposed to under?

1. There may be only a slight change in the amount of fermentable sugars based solely on your slightly higher then desired temperature.

Saccharification rest: the one rest necessary in every mash; at these temperatures, alpha-amylase, beta-amylase, and limit-dextrinase, among other enzymes, break down the large starches into sugars, including fermentable sugars. The specific temperatures at which these enzyme

Deg F--------Enzyme-----------Role
140-153-----Limit dextrinase----Degrades large starches into smaller starches accessible to alpha-amylase
140-167-----Alpha amylase-----Breaks down starches into sugars, including some fermentable sugars and some unfermentable sugars
140-150-----Beta-amylase-------Breaks down complex sugars into simpler fermentable sugars

Note that the most common mash temperatures, between 153 and 155 degrees F, are actually above the temperature where beta amylase is denatured. However, as it denatures, it does still operate in the wort, allowing a single-step infusion rest.

Because these enzymes operate at different temperatures, by adjusting the temperature to favor one enzyme over another the brewer can adjust the fermentability of the sugars in the wort.

2. I would suspect this is most likely the cause of your low OG. There are some people out there that swear by no-sparge brewing and have great outcomes with it. They do have a larger grain bill to make up for it, I would suspect the NB developed this kit with an average efficiency of around 75% and that takes some practice with no-sparge to get. Case in point I just brewed a Bock last weekend and my final runnings (last bit of sparge water needed to get to my target kettle volume) had a gravity of 1.040. This happened because I failed to check the water/grain ratio and it was set to 1.9 qt/lb instead of 1.5. At 1.9 I only had .6 gal of water to sparge with, where as if I had set it to 1.5 I would have had nearly 2.6 gal. That means I was still washing a good deal of sugars out of the mash and I know I left a good deal there because I didn't want to mess with increasing boil time.

3. Milling both how it's done and when it is done plays a part. Over milling is less of an issue then under milling. Over milling will lead to the pieces of kernel being so small that they pass through your grain bed filter and into the boil kettle. Also it could potentially break down the grain husks to the point where they don't even make a good filter anyway. Under milling will result in the passage of water within the kernel will be extremely slow. This will cause a great deduction in efficiency and the conversion process. Finding unmilled grain, I would suspect under milling. When it's done: I nearest it's done to mashing is best.

Raising the gravity is difficult to do now that you have already made a hopped wort. I don't even want to speculate how to do this sorry.

[phil6253]

I've been all around those temperature ranges with little trouble. I favor the 1.25 qt. to lb grain, they say thicker mashes help improve conversion and yield. I've over milled and really achieved some great results, but with a careful and slow sparge with fear of the STUCK MASH! I 've added rice hulls to my arsenal and haven't had any issues with fine milling.

I've had the under milled grain and been disappointed by the yield, luckily I had some DME around to get back where I needed to be. I messed with my manifold last week and screwed up my yield some, but just boiled it down to where I needed it for the recipe.
I batch sparge when trying to save time and really haven't seen a huge decrease in yields.
Good news is you'll enjoy more pints per session with this one.
Phil

[JMcG]

Assume you meant 20 qts, not gal of H2O. 1.25 is a better ratio to leave you more volume to sparge and a thicker mash helps with conversion.
Higher mash temp will usually result in a beer that is higher in body and lower in fermentables, so it will be a different beer than you intended.
Suspect you left some sugar in the mash tun, and the under-milled grain didn't help.
If you check a pre-boil gravity you can make corrections with DME in the boil.
Your beer may be a little more bitter than predicted due to increased hop utilization with a lower gravity.
Checking the gravity pre-boil you could also adjust your hop additions for utilization.
So, this might be a session beer instead of a big beer.
With practice your mashes will go better.
I wouldn't try to correct the gravity now, although, depending on the style, you could add sugar to lighten the body and increase fermentables.
What style is it?
jim

[Blktre]

There are some good things already posted. But I have a few questions.

Hitting 156* is high and will lend itself to a higher FG. Will this effect your OG? Maybe a little but not by as much of the numbers you posted.
You noted in #2 you did not sparge. What do you mean by that?
Yes, how the grain is milled can effect eff. But I think in your case this really isn't the issue.
What was your volume in the fermenter and was that the volume you were shooting for? Assuming a 5g batch here by your numbers.

I also prefer using 1.25/qts/#. Usually I hit my target mash temp dead nutz but If im low I can add hotter water to the mash and still not be to loose. When using a higher ratio and your thermos are a tad off what happens a lot of times is your mash over shoots. Like in your case. Then it gets pretty thin when adding cool water to stabilize. You did good by stirring to get it to cool off. What I do when over shooting is to add a little cool water and stir. This must be done fairly quickly after doughing in so you dont start to denature alpha amylase.

We need to know more of your sparging technique and what kind of setup you have in your MT. Im more on board that these things effected your OG. If you dont have the correct filtering device in your Tun that matches the sparge technique you will leave lots of goodies behind.

[DJ in KC]

I agree with all the above. It sounds like you did a no sparge. Added water once (well I guess twice to mashout) and only drained once. Right? You'll get much better efficiency it you batch sparge or fly sparge. John Palmer's "How to brew" has an online version of the book that describes both. I'm pressed for time to elaborate right now.

[Pentaquark]

These are all great comments, I really appreciate them. Several points:

yes, I did mean 20 QTS.

I read around and did eventually boil up 1 lb of DME into a qt of water, cooled it, and tossed it in for some extra sugars for the yeast. It added a few points to the OG but it would be nice to just do it right the first time.

I will ask for a finer mill next time (or get my own mill somehow...) and a thicker mash for more sparge volume capabilities.

Unfortunately, after this weekend I have two batches of beer to drink before I have room for another! Good thing they both ended up session beers...

Thanks again!