KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

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fatman1959
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KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#1 Post by fatman1959 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:48 am

Hello everyone!

I hope I can get some keg questions answered that are relative to what I am thinking about doing with kegs and forced carbonation.

If I buy a single keg system from someplace like AIH, and then buy kegs as needed, could I bring the first keg up to pressure for the few days it takes to force a carbonation, then disconnect the fist keg and store it for later bottling and then slip the next keg into its place to bring the pressure up on the second one and the repeat the process for the second/third/fourth etc etc?

Will a keg hold that pressure to maintain said carbonation for the days, or weeks before I can get it bottled??

Thanks in advance for any response!

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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#2 Post by Joe Yoder » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:48 am

Monty,
You will soon give up the whole idea of force carbonating from kegs and then bottling and just start serving from kegs. The bottling routine is just too tedious, taking precious time that could be spent brewing or drinking! That said, corny kegs have many possible leak locations and you may have trouble getting them to remain sealed when not attached to the gas. Another problem that I can see is that pressure changes with temperature and if you take the keg out of the refrigerator after carbonating, the temperature will change, and so will the pressure. In a perfect world you may be able to put the keg back in the refrigerator and bring the temperature back to where it was and the pressure should be the same...good luck with that.
PV=nrt is the guiding kegging equation. Pressure*Volume equals (n*r, constants)*temperature. This means that as temperature goes up pressure goes up and vice versa. There are other things to remember, like gasses being more soluble in cooler fluids (why we refrigerate before we carbonate).
Good luck with the kegs, you will be asking about a kegerator, soon.
Sorry about getting all sciency, but it is pi day...
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#3 Post by fatman1959 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:34 pm

Mmmmmmm,,, PI
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#4 Post by ParkerBrew » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:47 pm

I've been refermenting in kegs with pretty good luck. A few things I've picked up on to get them to hold pressure for a long time include:

+ Use o-rings that are fairly new.

+ Make sure you have good springs on the poppets, don't snip them to be shorter when they're new.

+ Keg lube

+ right after filling the keg, purge the air out with CO2, then I like to crank up the pressure to +/-30psi. You'll hear the lid o-ring pop, it's pushing up to the top of that lip in the keg opening.

And, for the record, I agree with Joe. I'd work towards just serving it out of the kegs. It could be something as simple as the cheap black plastic faucet on a few inches on beverage line. Force carbonating it in a keg, then to bottles, seems like more work than just bottle conditioning.
Next Brew: IIPA 3.6, SIPA 1.7, Choc Stout 3.4 - Sep 9
Fermenting: Barley Wine 1.2
Conditioning: 1Red Rye Ale, Berliner Weisse 1.1, SIPA 1.6
On Tap: IPA 2.8, Matilda Clone 1.1, Choc Stout 3.3, Soda Water

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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#5 Post by fatman1959 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:10 pm

The reason I was asking about the bottling from the keg after forcing carbonation was I don't have a refrigerator to put the keg into to keep it cool in the first place, and I most certainly can't afford a kegerator nor do I have the space to place a keg fridge anywhere in this apartment anyway.

Money & Space,, I have neither. The bottle boxes are piling up here too. :lol:

Unless I am missing some angle to this for keeping my brew cold at a fairly cheap price and a small footprint I guess I am pretty much out of the keg dreams.

:bounce:
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#6 Post by JMcG » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:02 am

At room temp it will require very high pressure and/or a lot of time to carb your beer (http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php). Trying this at room temp could be tricky due to foaming unless you have a counter-pressure filler.
Bottle conditioning should be at cellar/room temp and, although it takes longer than force carbing at low temps, won't take that much more time than trying to force carb at room temp. IMO, a lot of styles are better bottle conditioned, anyway.
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#7 Post by kevputo » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:49 pm

It is possible to just treat the keg like one giant bottle: Add priming sugar and let it naturally carbonate at room temp. It sounds fancier when you call it cask conditioning or real ale. You'll only need about half the total amount of priming sugar that you would have used for individual bottles. Just follow Matt's advice on making sure the seals are in good condition, and hitting it with some pressure to seat the seals. There will be a lot of yeast sediment at the bottom of the keg once it's carbonated. But you can deal with that by cutting a couple of inches off of the dip tube, or just tossing the first couple of pints that you pull from the keg.

Serving/bottling off of the keg without a way to chill it sounds like a bad plan though. If you have space for it, a counter height mini-fridge can fit a couple of corny kegs and the CO2 tank. Just look for one without the freezer shelf thingy. You can serve from that with a picnic tap to start with, or add a draft tower. Here are some instructions on how to do that: http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/ho ... tor-plans/

There are lots of intermediate options out there as well to save space. Party pig & Tap-A-Draft are two systems that come to mind. Or for a cheaper option google DIY homebrew mini keg for instructions on how to use those 5L mini-kegs. Or, would you have room to put a 2.5 gallon corny keg in your regular fridge?

Lots of choices. Hopefully you can find something to fit your budget & space.
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#8 Post by fatman1959 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:33 pm

kevputo wrote:Or, would you have room to put a 2.5 gallon corny keg in your regular fridge?
That's something I didn't really think of,,,, putting two 2.5 gallon corny kegs together to make one 5 gallon setup, with a single picnic tap. 8)

The sad part is the apartment sized refrigerator in this place is near on useless for size. By the time dad and I get the food we need to live on in there, we have almost taken up every inch of the space in there. Even two 2.5G kegs will be pushing it for room. :roll:

I am starting to wonder if kegging is something I can get into or not. :?
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fatman1959
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#9 Post by fatman1959 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:36 pm

Btw, here is a link that some might find informative....

http://www.micromatic.com/content.aspx?id=228379#
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#10 Post by Phoenix » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:17 pm

fatman1959 wrote:That's something I didn't really think of,,,, putting two 2.5 gallon corny kegs together to make one 5 gallon setup, with a single picnic tap. 8)
There's no reason to hook them together. Fill up two kegs when you brew, and use them one at a time.

You DO want to keg. Bottling sucks, I know because I did it once. ONCE. I'm a fast learner.
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#11 Post by jwkeffer » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:26 pm

I'm new to kegging myself, so I don't have a lot of good tips. But I do agree it's a lot easier.

You can actually reach inside a keg for cleaning, and you only have to clean one per batch. With 22 ounce bottles, you're looking at cleaning at least 24 bottles for a five gallon batch.

I tried clearing out the fridge so I could fit a keg in there and force carbonate it for about a week. I checked the carbonation charts and did some web research to figure out how to do it. I had it cranked up to about 30PSI for ten days and the results were so-so.

I think you could get the hang of it over time, but I've gone to natural carbonation in kegs. I calculate my sugar for the volume of beer and the volumes of pressure I want, boil that in a cup or so of filtered water, let it cool off and then add it to the keg I'm using. I siphon straight into the keg. I assume the swirling of the beer will get the sugar mixed good (I don't want to add any air at this point).

Once it's full, I seal the keg and put enough pressure on it to get it to seal up good. Then I put the CO2 on the "liquid out" post and put about 10PSI on it while I pop the release valve for a few seconds. That way, I drive off all the air in the keg and replace it all with CO2. I let it sit at room temperature for a couple of weeks, and it's been working pretty good.

Anyway, it's easy-peasy, and I've had good luck for the handful of batches I've done that way.

On the other hand, I understand your pain for how to chill and handle the kegs themselves. I did bottles for over a year, and they require a lot less "special stuff." The cleaning and sterilizing is the big hassle. The one tip I've got may not help (didn't help me...); if you've got one of the nicer, newer dishwashers, you can set it to heat only, and it will sanitize the bottles. My old dishwasher doesn't do that, so it didn't help me.

With bottles, if you put them back in the box and close the lid, it keeps the light out and you can put them just about anywhere you have space for a couple of weeks to get the carbonation you want. I use the laundry room. You can store them at room temperature until you're ready to move them to the fridge.

You might want to put something down in case you get a bottle bomb, though. (In a two or three dozen batches, I only had one bottle go... but if you have them somewhere with carpet, it could be a huge mess.)

Again, even for bottling, I calculate the sugar in advance for the volumes of pressure I want, boil it in a cup of water, cool it, and add it to the bottling bucket before I siphon into the bucket. I feel that I get a more uniform sugar distribution, I don't agitate the beer (add air), and with practice, I've gotten pretty good at getting the pressure I want.

Your mileage may vary -- if you get comfortable with a technique, that's the way to go.

I kind of "went the long way 'round the barn" here, but really, what I wanted to say is that even as a newbie, kegging is easier, but there's nothing wrong with bottling.
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#12 Post by Joe Yoder » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:20 am

Jon,
You have provided a lot of good advice and I don't want to be critical at all, but (there is always a but, isn't there), the statement:
"Then I put the CO2 on the "liquid out" post and put about 10PSI on it while I pop the release valve for a few seconds. That way, I drive off all the air in the keg and replace it all with CO2." is a bit misleading. It is a common misconception though and understandable. Gasses mix. You can never purge the O2 completely out of a keg or even the headspace of a keg by blowing CO2 into a keg that has O2 in it. The best you can hope for with this method is that the O2 will decrease somewhat and be replaced with some CO2. The ONLY way to completely purge a keg of O2 is to completely fill it with liquid (sanitizer) and then blow all of the liquid out with CO2. That way you have a keg full of CO2 that you can fill from the bottom with beer that will never again touch O2! It may seem like a waste of CO2, but there is no good way around it that I am aware of. You don't need to waste the sanitizer, you can blow it into the next keg to be filled or into a bucket for reuse.
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#13 Post by JMcG » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:43 am

If the keg has been cleaned and sanitized you can fill it with clean water and blow it out with CO2.

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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#14 Post by Joe Yoder » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:47 am

"If the keg has been cleaned and sanitized you can fill it with clean water and blow it out with CO2."

I guess it depends on your definition of 'clean'. I wouldn't use 'clean' tap water, though I doubt that it would cause much trouble. But if the water was boiled or somehow otherwise sanitized, I am sure that would be fine.
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Re: KEG QUESTIONS: from a newbie to kegs

#15 Post by kevputo » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:17 pm

I've always put the whole issue of purging oxygen in the RDWHAHB column. I usually just pressurize & vent the head space a few times after I fill the keg, and assume that gets the majority of the oxygen. Sometimes I push the CO2 in from the liquid tube like Jon mentioned, and when I do that I pull the relief valve until foam comes out. Then I let it settle a few minutes, and repeat 2-3 times. I figure the gas in the bubbles is mostly CO2, so the foaming action helps keep the CO2 from mixing with the regular air. In either case, the remaining yeast in solution can clean up what little O2 is left, right?

Now Joe's comments have me questioning my lack of diligence, so I decided to look into it a little further. That, and apparently I miss physics/chemistry calculations. So anyway, let's take a look.

To start with, here are a couple of givens: air is only ~21% Oxygen, and standard atmospheric pressure is roughly 15psia, or 0 psig. (psig meaning gage pressure, what the reading on your pressure gage shows)

Now if you transfer your beer into the keg, close the lid, and pressurize to 30 psig (45psia), then you're tripling the pressure and mass of the gas in the keg. The gases will mix, so if you vent all of the pressure back out of the keg, you've effectively reduced the amount of oxygen in the head space by 1/3rd. If you do 3 rounds of pressurizing & venting, that takes your oxygen content below 1% (by volume) of the total gas in the headspace of the keg. If you only use 10psi, you can still get below 1%, but you have to repeat the purging process 6 times.

So now let's assume there is 2L of headspace in your keg after filling. At room temperature and atmospheric pressure, that works out to 0.02 moles of gas molecules (PV=nRT). Multiply that by 1% (the percentage of those molecules which are 02, per the previous paragraph's calculation), then 32g/mole (the molecular weight for 02) and you find that there is a total of .0064 grams of O2 in the headspace of the keg.

5 gallons is 19L, so after everything reaches equilibrium and the gases dissolve evenly into solution you end up with an oxygen concentration around 0.3mg/L. In comparison, when you're aerating wort prior to fermentation, I've read that you're trying to reach roughly 6-10mg/L of dissolved oxygen.

So after all of that I'm really not worried about oxygen damaging the beer in my kegs, as long as I can keep everything sealed up well.
Kevin Hansen

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