Lawrence Brewers Guild

I just finished my electric keggle conversion a few weeks ago. I am using a BCS-460 controller. I built a control panel with switches for my pump and heater element. I can turn them on manually or set it to auto and the BCS can control them as needed. The interface is my iPad, but I could also access it using my iPhone or laptop since the BCS is connected to my wireless home network.
The BCS is state based, meaning that when certain things happen in a state, it can trigger the next state, e.g. I can start the heater element and when the water reaches strike temp (which I set), I can have it advance to the next state, which in my case is to pause while I dough in, then when I indicate dough in is done, it will start my mash recirculating by turning on the pump and maintaining the mash temp, etc. I set up all the processes that I want to occur, and have brewed one batch with it so far and it works pretty slick.
I don't have labels for the control box yet, but the buttons are the big red e-stop, the blue power button, green Manual-Off-Auto switch for pump and red Manual-Off-Auto switch for heater element.
The heater element is a ripple type 5500W ULWD 240V. I set the BCS controller to use the PID function to reach (and maintain) temps that I want, until a boil is reached, then change to a 60/40 duty cycle to maintain a boil.
I have temp probes in the kettle and mash tun (cooler) so the BCS can monitor temps and change states when desired.

The system is not hands off (which is fine by me), since I pump from the boil kettle to the mash tun and gravity feed the return from the mash to the boil. I have to tweak the valve on the outlet of my pump to keep the flow even. I will be adding an autosparge to the cooler to maintain the mash level in the future.

EDIT: the pump (and the CFC) is in the bucket on the right hand side.

Here's a picture of my setup (yea, a brewstand is next on my list ).
Click for larger version.

Grabbed a pic of the interface (not actually brewing at the time of pic, so temp values are 0 - not connected).

Note that my drawing/layout skills are lacking but it'll do for now.

I set it to the Mash process. The heater is on (red light) and being PID controlled to maintain 156F, and my hose connections for recirc are showing. When I finish dough in, I would press the 'Dough in done' button and it would go to the next state of recirculating the wort from mash tun to kettle and the pump would also come on.

Click for larger version.


EDIT: another pic
This is the Boil process where I've already connected the CFC and am recircing to sanitize the CFC during the last 15 mins of the boil.
Note that I did a Force State Jump to the Finish Boil state for picture purposes and the timer is not at 15 mins left.

Fantastic! Great Presentation of the set up too! 220v, my brew partner, I am sure, is drooling. Any Problems with scorching anywhere in the process so far?









I am speechless. Not about the system, but that you use pin-locks!

That is cool. I need to check this out one of your brew days.....

Im asking a possible dumb question, is the only ground on the keggle at the element bulkhead? I see a inline GFI too, but wondered if that's enough grounding? I always heard to have at least two safety features using electric keggles.

Jensen wrote:Fantastic! Great Presentation of the set up too! 220v, my brew partner, I am sure, is drooling. Any Problems with scorching anywhere in the process so far?

Thanks for the comments. I've only brewed one batch so far (5 gallons of a northern English brown ale) and it worked great. It's just now carbonated enough to drink, but it needs to age some.

I didn't notice any scorching in the keggle and didn't notice any significant difference in the taste of the beer (I've brewed this one before), though it's still kind of green right now. What affect would scorching have on the beer? Burnt taste? More caramelization?

For my recirculation of the mash (from keggle to mash tun), I make sure that I maintain at least 4 gallons of liquid in the keggle which covers the element by about 1.5". For a 10 gallon batch, this won't be a problem, but for some higher gravity 5 gallon batches, I may run into the issue of having too thick of a mash (IMO) while maintaining that 4 gallons in the keggle.

Jensen wrote:I am speechless. Not about the system, but that you use pin-locks!

Haha. I sold off 10 pin-locks a few weeks ago. The other 8 I have are ball-locks.
That keg in the picture is 1 of 2 I reserved for a co-worker and haven't brought to him yet. It's up there to prevent the cooler lid from tipping back too far and stressing the hinges.

Blktre wrote:That is cool. I need to check this out one of your brew days.....

Thanks. I live in Gardner, but if you are willing to drive, I'll gladly have you come check it out and have some brew.

Blktre wrote:Im asking a possible dumb question, is the only ground on the keggle at the element bulkhead? I see a inline GFI too, but wondered if that's enough grounding? I always heard to have at least two safety features using electric keggles.

Can you elaborate on the two safety features comment, please? I haven't heard or read anything about it.

I have the GFCI inline to power the control panel as you noticed. The outlet is tapped off of my dryer outlet (can't run both at same time) and is a 4-prong 30A circuit. The heater element outlet (on the back of the control panel) is three prong with one of those being ground (and connected internally in the control panel to ground). At the element end as you saw, the ground is attached to the skirt of the keggle.

Baron Ken wrote:

Blktre wrote:That is cool. I need to check this out one of your brew days.....

the ground is attached to the skirt of the keggle.

That's all I was looking for, thanks....

A buddy uses a inline GFI and also one at the breaker. Guess that is what I was hinting at.

Ok, thanks for asking me about it. Better safe than sorry where electricity and water are involved.

Baron Ken wrote: What affect would scorching have on the beer? Burnt taste? More caramelization?

I actually have some brown sugar oatmeal stout that I scorched a couple of years ago. I was still bottling - I don't consider it worth the effort to open and empty the bottles. Maybe I'll give it to homeless people, although most of them probably deserve better.... It's been over a year since I tried one, so maybe I'll see if it's improved; the first year of aging did not make it drinkable. Or I could give one to you and let you tell me....

I brought a couple to a meeting once. "Kissing Keith Richards" was suggested, but the prize-winning moniker was Monaghan's: "Whore's Mouth Stout". The taste and overall experience was much like licking an ashtray. A used ashtray. Used for various nefarious activities before being used as a tray for ashes and butts. Ashes from a crematory of the undead. Butts from..., well, you get the idea.

For the uninitiated, the eventual solution I found to remove the scorch from the inside of my brew kettle was repeated soaking and boiling with hydrogen peroxide. The typical 3% solution worked, but if it happens again I'll find the 20% solution supposedly available at professional salon supply shops.

That's pretty slick! I've thought about a controller but everything is second nature to me with my system now, so everything gets done manually except having a Ranco set/maintain temps for me. I'm usually kegging and cleaning the fermenter during the busy part of the brewday anyway so it's not a big deal for me to switch things around close by. I'm all 240v for heating.

That element won't scorch anything. I bought a backup a few months ago. When they go out it's usually when you're using them. Lucky I could find one in Prairie Village when mine shot craps last time in the middle of a brew - never had much luck locally before. Now I have a cheaper online purchase one ready for next time. Looks like I have the same MT. Just unscrew the lid and put the screws back in with the lid off. Works nice here. Doing 10 gallon batches I have a lag time before I can recirc - usually. I mash with the lid on then just take it off to recirc and then vorlauf at mashout temps. It only took a little adjustment to figure out I need to set my EHERMS at 9df above intended mash temps with the lid off. Plus you get to smell it

Nice setup!

ETA - redundant grounding at my place, plus everything runs on a GFI circuit.

Jensen wrote: 220v, my brew partner, I am sure, is drooling.

If not for the nice dry IPA i am sipping, i might be salivated...

So this is a sparge-less system? What kind of mash efficiency are you getting getting? I suppose not enough brews yet...

How do you like the BCS? So you were able to set up a 60/40 (proportional) control to maintain boil, is that a new state or automatic once boil is achieved?

I have many more questions, but I have a rule about asking more than 3 questions at a time
looks pretty good!

Clint

twedelc wrote:So this is a sparge-less system?

Yes, it is a no-sparge system. It recirculates strike water from the kettle to the mash tun (cooler) and back to kettle to preheat the mash tun, then after dough-in, it does a continuous recirculate for the whole mash time, with the kettle heater keeping the temp stabilized (thanks to the BCS). After mashing, the pump (from kettle to mash tun) is shut off and it gravity drains from mash tun to kettle. As it's draining, the kettle starts heating up for the boil (keep in mind there is always around 4 gal liquid in the kettle to cover the element). I let it drain for a long time, so it does get most of the liquid out of the grains (since I'm not sparging, it's still missing some residual sugars as you'll see from my efficiency below).

What kind of mash efficiency are you getting getting? I suppose not enough brews yet...

I have only brewed 1 batch with this set up (using the BCS) so far and the efficiency was:
Northern English Brown Ale (5 gal) 67%

I brewed 3 other batches earlier this Summer using the setup with propane burner and no BCS.
Porter (10 gal) 67%
IPA (10 gal) 55%
Mild (5 gal) 70%

Excluding the IPA, it seems my efficiency with this setup (with and without BCS) is hovering around the upper 60s.
I don't know what happened with the IPA, but the beer turned out exceptionally tasty. I'm brewing it again Saturday as it's my house IPA and yes, the 10 gal is already gone, LOL, so I'll see how it goes (and tastes) compared to the last batch. I've also adjusted my grain mill spacing (tighter) hoping to increase efficiency a little, but I'm not too concerned about it. The beers are coming out great and having to add a little more grain to make up for the efficiency is worth it to have an 'unconventional' set up.

Also, I've added the Blichmann AutoSparge to the mash tun to keep the level constant. No more fiddling with the pump valve.

How do you like the BCS?

I like the BCS. It's pretty neat to set it all up and watch it turn on heaters and pumps. I am greatly under-utilizing it (only using 2 outputs and 2 temp probes), but it was fun building it all anyway. One of these days I may get some electric actuated valves and hard-pipe the lines between components. Get it all mounted on a stand, etc. Someday.

So you were able to set up a 60/40 (proportional) control to maintain boil, is that a new state or automatic once boil is achieved?

Yes, it is a new state...but, getting to that state can be either manual or automatic depending on how you set it up. If manual, when I determine it's at boil, I press a button and it goes to the 60/40 state. If automatic, I can tell it what temp to reach to consider a boil and then it will automatically go to the 60/40 state. I haven't tested the automatic version yet. Will probably call 210F or so a 'boil' and let it switch to 60/40 at that time. If that doesn't work, I will lower the target 'boil' temp it's looking for until it does work. Still tweaking.

If you are interested in the whole session, read on.
You can program up to 8 different Processes which can have up to 8 states each. My 3 processes (and states) are:
Heat Strike

1. Heat Strike (turns on heater and when temp gets to strike temp (that I set), it goes to next state)
2. Connect Recirc (just a verification step to make sure I have the hoses connected. heater is still maintaining strike temp. goes to next state when I press a button in the interface) (note that I may just connect my hoses and open valves before starting brewing so I can remove this state)
3. Preheat MLT (pump and heater are on to recirc and maintain strike temp and preheat the mash tun. goes to Mash Process and ends Heat Strike Process when preheat timer runs down or I get impatient and press a button to say I think it's preheated long enough)

Mash

1. Dough in (turns off pump and changes kettle set temp to the desired mash temp. I dough in then press a button on interface to go to next state)
2. Recirc (turns pump back on to recirculate. note that I vorlauf into a small container for a bit to clear up the recirculating wort and to set the grain bed around the braid in my mash tun. goes to next state when the mash timer counts down or goes to Mashout state if I press a button saying that conversion is complete)
3. Check conversion (turns off pump so I can check for conversion in the mash tun. thinking this is unneeded step since I can just grab a small refractometer sample from the recirculating wort coming into the kettle. goes to next state when I press a button on interface)
4. Mashout (pump is on, heater is set to mashout temp. goes to next state when either: mashout timer is 0, mash temp reaches mashout temp, or I push a button saying it's done) (note that I don't have to include this state if I don't want a mash out)
5. Drain to BK (turns off pump and lets mash tun drain to kettle. goes to Boil Process and ends Mash Process when I press a button saying I think it's drained enough to start the boil process)

Boil

1. Bring to boil (sets heater temp to 212F to start raising wort temp to boil. still using PID for temp control at this point. goes to next state when: temp reaches 210F (I'm still working on this value), or I press a button saying boil has started)
2. Boil (changes temp control to proportional 60/40 duty cycle to maintain boil. goes to next state when boil timer has 15 mins left) (note I may have to have a higher 'on' proportion when I do 10 gal batches. will find out this weekend).
3. Connect CFC (just a reminder step for me to connect the CFC. goes to next state when I press a button)
4. Finish boil (turns on pump to start recirculating wort through the CFC back into the kettle to heat sanitize CFC (note that CFC was cleaned with sanitizer before brewing started, LOL). goes to next state when boil timer reaches 0)
5. Recirc to cool (pump still on, heater now off. start the water into the CFC to start cooling the wort. goes to next state when temp reaches 160F)
6. Ice bath to ferm (pump still on. a fountain pump in an ice bath is used to recirculate water through the water side of the CFC and the wort out of the CFC goes into the fermenter at approx. pitching temp. when wort is all in fermenter, I end the Boil Process by pressing a button, woo!)

I threw a lot of user intervention 'button' checks in the states so I could have more control over things.
I have to keep track of hop additions myself, but I can use the boil timer to see the time.

Keep in mind I also have to do things ahead of time like prime the pump, etc. A loss of prime during the session is dealt with by pressing the pause button on the interface and using the manual setting of the physical switch on the control panel, then resuming on the BCS when ready. Should work out fine, but I haven't had to test that yet.

It was MUCH easier to set up in the BCS than it was to type all this.

I have many more questions, but I have a rule about asking more than 3 questions at a time
looks pretty good!

Clint

That was 4 questions. Thanks for the feedback and interest.

Baron Ken wrote:...If automatic, I can tell it what temp to reach to consider a boil and then it will automatically go to the 60/40 state. I haven't tested the automatic version yet. Will probably call 210F or so a 'boil' and let it switch to 60/40 at that time. If that doesn't work, I will lower the target 'boil' temp it's looking for until it does work. Still tweaking.

1. Bring to boil (sets heater temp to 212F to start raising wort temp to boil. still using PID for temp control at this point. goes to next state when: temp reaches 210F (I'm still working on this value), or I press a button saying boil has started)

Actually, since PID control will 'ease' it's way to 212F once it gets close (it does this to minimize overshooting the temp), I changed it from PID control to directly on so it will just go full power until it reaches 210F then switch to the next state.

Baron Ken wrote:

Baron Ken wrote:...If automatic, I can tell it what temp to reach to consider a boil and then it will automatically go to the 60/40 state. I haven't tested the automatic version yet. Will probably call 210F or so a 'boil' and let it switch to 60/40 at that time. If that doesn't work, I will lower the target 'boil' temp it's looking for until it does work. Still tweaking.

1. Bring to boil (sets heater temp to 212F to start raising wort temp to boil. still using PID for temp control at this point. goes to next state when: temp reaches 210F (I'm still working on this value), or I press a button saying boil has started)

Actually, since PID control will 'ease' it's way to 212F once it gets close (it does this to minimize overshooting the temp), I changed it from PID control to directly on so it will just go full power until it reaches 210F then switch to the next state.

Ken,

You do not have your PID controller tuned correctly. Your heater output should ramp full out until it gets close to setpoint with some over shoot above setpoint.

Since water, not wort boils at 212 degrees at sea level, tune your controller at a lower temperature. Try 205 degrees. I don't know your controller application but hopefully it has a graph or trending mode for the water temperature. A chart recording will make tuning easier. You are looking for a quarter wave ring down or quicker from a PID controller.

Start with Proportional, no Integral and no Derivative. Keep lowering the Proportional until the water temperature oscillates up and down around the setpoint. At this, the Proportional is too fast so double your Proportional number. Your Proportional should now be very close to the correct value.

Now do the same thing with Integral.

And finally, do the same thing with Derivative.

Proportional is like the toilet bowl float in your toilet. If you have a leak, it will still fill the bowl but will run with an offset from setpoint, but the valve will not open any wider. It will still try to reach the setpoint.

Integral, is a time function. So the longer the value is away from the setpoint the more Integral tries to increase the output to achieve setpoint.

Derivative, is rate function. The quicker that the value moves away from setpoint the quicker Derivative tries to correct the output either raising or lowering the output. Derivative is generally used in temperature and pH loops.

If your control circuits use Direct Current, then the output is a steady analog output to the heating coil. If your control circuit is Triac or SSR (Solid State Relay) controlled then it may be PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) to control the temperature.

Once you have gained control at a value below boiling (205 degrees) then the values should work at 212 degrees or higher.

I am sure that if you Google PID control that something will pop up with formulas that will make your tuning easier and get you in the ball park quicker.

You could also do On/Off control with a 2 degree Dead Band. Wort, with the sugars (higher boiling point) should be able to reach 213 degrees. So with a setpoint of 212 degrees, the heater would turn on at 211 degrees and off at 213 degrees. On/Off control can lag behind if the media changes quickly (over shoot and under shoot) but should not be a problem with water and it's mass.

Have fun with your new controller. I got long winded - sorry.

klickcue wrote:

Baron Ken wrote:

Baron Ken wrote:...If automatic, I can tell it what temp to reach to consider a boil and then it will automatically go to the 60/40 state. I haven't tested the automatic version yet. Will probably call 210F or so a 'boil' and let it switch to 60/40 at that time. If that doesn't work, I will lower the target 'boil' temp it's looking for until it does work. Still tweaking.

1. Bring to boil (sets heater temp to 212F to start raising wort temp to boil. still using PID for temp control at this point. goes to next state when: temp reaches 210F (I'm still working on this value), or I press a button saying boil has started)

Actually, since PID control will 'ease' it's way to 212F once it gets close (it does this to minimize overshooting the temp), I changed it from PID control to directly on so it will just go full power until it reaches 210F then switch to the next state.

Ken,

You do not have your PID controller tuned correctly. Your heater output should ramp full out until it gets close to setpoint with some over shoot above setpoint.

Chris, thanks for your input.

What from the quote above leads you to think the PID isn't tuned correctly (I'm asking sincerely)?
My heater output when in PID mode is full power until it gets close to setpoint. Was it because I said the PID control will 'ease' it's way to 212F? It does this (as above) when it gets close to setpoint and then overshoots some. Where I was talking about changing it to direct on, that will just eliminate the 'easing' up to 212F and just go full power all the way (I don't care about overshooting 212F ).

I know the difference in output power will be minimal, but I see no need to have the PID deal with 'ramping' the power for the last few degrees to 212F. I'll just go full power (direct on) until it gets to the temp I want (boil). Note that I could also set the PID setpoint to say, 220F and it would most likely go full power (no ramping) until it got to 210F (or whatever exit condition I set for it to go to the next state).

...
If your control circuit is Triac or SSR (Solid State Relay) controlled then it may be PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) to control the temperature.
...
You could also do On/Off control with a 2 degree Dead Band.

My outputs (heater and pump) are both SSR (1 SSR for pump, 2 SSRs for the heater).

The great thing about the BCS controller is that all of those are selectable depending on what you want:
Direct on/off
Duty Cycle (PWM)
Hysteresis (similar to dead band, but depending on either cooling or heating, the output is on when above or below the setpoint)
PID

Again, thanks for the info!