Bugged Saison

[klickcue]

Made a starter from a full slant of WY3711 French Saison. 10ml of wort into slant for 2 day. This went into 1 pint of wort and then into 2 quarts of wort.

Mashed grain at 153 dF for 60 minutes on July 4.

Made Saison. OG 1.060 -- FG 1.008 -- 86% ADF (7/15/2010) -- 6.9% ABV. By the way the beer looked it would have gone down another couple of points.

Racked beer off into a clean 6 gallon carboy and pitched Brettanomyces Claussenii WY5151-PC

Tomorrow, I will be receiving Pediococcus Cerevisiae and Oenococcus.

Have a slant of WLP510 growing up in 1 pint of wort now. This will be a Belgian Special when it is done and bugged as well.

[Blktre]

Looks yummy.
I have a question.
You pitched Brett into glass. Glass has Zero o2 penetration. I thought I understood that Brett needs some o2 to do its magic.
Whats the thinking of pitching Brett into glass?

[Jdl973]

Andy,

From what I have read (no real world experience yet) a gently racked beer should have around 2-3 PPM of O2 dissolved in the beer. Also depending on the head-space of the carboy, there should also be a bit of O2 available (as most of the fermentation is done at this point and the layer of CO2 will not form in the new carboy) as the Bret goes through its metabolic cycle. Just what the books say.

You could also get a gas permeable fermentation plug which will allow gases to pass in and out and prevent the bad bugs from getting in...




Jason

[klickcue]

Looks yummy.
I have a question.
You pitched Brett into glass. Glass has Zero o2 penetration. I thought I understood that Brett needs some o2 to do its magic.
Whats the thinking of pitching Brett into glass?

The beer that people sampled at Juggs came from glass.

The ale yeast beer was transferred into a CO2 blanketed carboy and was slightly still producing CO2 from the ferment. An air lock was placed on the carboy after the Brett was pitched.

There are people that are producing 100% Brett beers without adding O2 to the wort. I think that they are also adding yeast nutrient in the wort. What they are trying to do is increase the flavor compounds

[meisel]

While Brett is an aerobic yeast, it is actually more active in an oxygen depleted environment. This is one of the reasons it can live in the wood of barrels, it needs very little food or oxygen to survive. While oxygenating will increase cell count, it's not until all oxygen and nutrients are nearly depleted that brett truly "comes alive" so to speak. I agree Chris, this one sounds tasty

[Blktre]

Lee,
I know you have studied Raj b Apte. Ive regarded his writtings as much or more than Sparrow simply because Raj provides alot more detailed information on strains than anyone Ive ever studied.

Here is a quote about Brett and o2.

Bretta likes to form pellicles and is very efficient in this mode. Pellicle formation may depend on the presence of gaseous O2. Although all Brettanomyces exhibit the Custer effect (aka negative Pasteur effect), it is unclear if different flavour compounds are produced in aerobic or anaerobic conditions. Anecdotally, people complain of lack of complexity in pure culture lambics that are aged in glass. I take this to suggest that Brettanomyces should be grown aerobically, and that pellicle formation may be important for allowing additional oxygen into the system and accelerated Bretta production of flavor compounds. This is purely speculation at this point, but its consistent with the Acetobacter/Brettanomyces mixed pellicle observation (vs).

He also says this about pellicle formation. So my understanding is Brett will protect itself in a over aerobic environment.

Pellicles are an indicator of headspace oxygen. Brett, Acetobacter, and other pellicle-forming bugs do so when the headspace of a container is oxygen rich. I don't understand the considerations between headspace and dissolved oxygen entirely, but too much headspace oxygen can result in too much acetic acid formation. Dissolved oxygen feeds Brett, but too much of it can oxidize the taste of the beer. Maltiness can be lost.

Here is a link to one of his papers. Pay particular attention to the different vessels and o2 penetration. I have always bugged in glass, but used the wooden oak dowel. Raj talks about this also. Im not sure if others have studied Raj or not, but if so, his writings are still worth posting here.

http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/ ... dale.shtml

[meisel]

Raj has some great reads on buggy beers, I followed many of his considerations before brewing my first sour. FWIW I ferment my sours in HDPE barrels and secondary in glass or kegs. I think one of the things that helps superattenuation with brett beers is the reductive process in which is consumes the available O2. Raj does point out that incremental amounts of 02 over a longer period of time is better than too much 02 early on in the primary. I say experiment and see what works for you. Great link Andy.

[Blktre]

Raj has some great reads on buggy beers, I followed many of his considerations before brewing my first sour. FWIW I ferment my sours in HDPE barrels and secondary in glass or kegs. I think one of the things that helps superattenuation with brett beers is the reductive process in which is consumes the available O2. Raj does point out that incremental amounts of 02 over a longer period of time is better than too much 02 early on in the primary. I say experiment and see what works for you. Great link Andy.

This is why I think there is no replacement for the performance of a actual barrel when thinking about o2 saturation and oak complexity.

I still feel there should be some type of oak in secondary. Glass and a oak dowel. The oak dowel allows the incremental amount of o2 over time as you mentioned, gives a place for the critters to harbor, and may add some type of oak complexity to the beer. The idea here is to try and match a actual wood barrel in these terms.

Next time I want to use a HDPE bucket for secondary and put a few oak chunks in the bottom to see if the results are similar.

I think we have a few different methods to the madness going on and I like to see the differences when sampling each others beer.

[klickcue]

What one has to consider is the Raj is also growing Acetobacter. O2 permeation through plastic and wood will allow Acetobacter to grow. One of the reasons to keep the head space full in wooden barrels.

Acetobacter feeds on the alcohol produced by the yeast.

[klickcue]

Getting ready to transfer this beer to a 5 gallon keg.

SG 1.057
FG 0.997
AVB 8.22%
Mash at 153 dF
7/4/2010 WY3711 - Pitched yeast that was started from a full slant. Slant started with 50 ml of wort. Into 1 pint of wort, into 2 quarts of wort.
7/15/2010 Beer is down to 1.008 SG
7/15/2010 Racked beer into 6 gallon carboy. Pitched 1 pint liquid Brett C.
9/18/2010 Down to 0.997 SG

Has a nice Orange/Pineapple background.