Kegging Questions...

[mushhawk]

Hi guys,
I've just been home brewing for a couple months now. I have brewed and bottled 2 batches now.
For my next batch, I am going to keg the beer. I have a few questions about the process though.

I saw something on here about needing to cut the top of the keg. What's the process that you have to do so you can reuse a keg?
Also, I found this diagram online.

I see there's one that's about the size of the 1/6th barrel that is labeled "Home Brew". If you want to re-use the regular 1/6 barrel keg, what's the process for making it work?

Are the 1/6th barrel kegs 5 gallons? How many gallons are the 1/4 barrel squatty kegs?
Is the tall, skinny 1/6th barrel size what people generally usually use for home brew?

Do you add the same amount of priming sugar to the keg as you would if you were bottling? Does this change since CO2 is involved in keg beer?

Thanks for the info guys. As I said, I'm a newbie to this. I've got the brewing process figured out. My 2 batches turned out great. I haven't kegged at all yet though. So, any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Frank]

First the term "barrel" is a unit of measure and more specifically it means "U.S. Barrel" which is 31 U.S. Gallons. So a 1/6th Barrel is rounded to 5 gallons, not sure about the 1/4 barrel could be any where from 7.5 to 8 gallons and Half Barrel (what you get from liquor stores) is 15.5 gallons.

The keg labeled "Home Brew" is a "ball lock" in this diagram which is a 5 gallon capacity. There is also a "home brew" keg that is called "Pin Lock" and has the same capacity but slightly different dimensions. The reason these 2 types of "ball lock" and "pin lock" kegs exist is because of their origins. Both of them are re-purposed kegs that were used in the soda industry (Coca-Cola and Pepsi). Back before the current "bag in box" soda systems where the mixture of water and syrup happens at the store they used these kegs to distribute ready to serve soda. These kegs have been phased out and are now nearly excessively used in the home brew and home soda.

The main difference from the kegs labeled with a "Barrel" measure and home brew are the type of connection the beer is dispensed with. The "barrel" kegs use whats called a "Sanke-D" type connection that is used by commerical bars, breweries, and restraunts. Home brew kegs use a type of disconnect consistent with it's name "Ball" and "Pin" based locking.

Cuting the top off...This IS NOT for the purpose of storing and serving beer. This process is to convert a 1/2 Barrel keg into a kettle used in the brewing process. This then becomes whats called a "keggle".

Sanke type kegs can be tricky to master when it comes to reusing and filling. Ball/Pin locks are very easy to use, fill, and clean.

Priming sugar and kegging... Priming sugar the vast majority of the time is not used in kegging. Typically CO2 is used to carbinate the kegged beer because it reduces the amount of sediment in the keg. Both the use of priming sugar and CO2 require specific calculations to be used correctly and safely. It's is in itself a lengthy topic.

[mushhawk]

Thanks a lot Frank!!
That answers almost every question I had about kegging.
I really appreciate it!

I'm still unclear on one thing though. So, how do you get the beer in these kegs?
If the top has one of those 3 types of connections where the CO2 and beer tap hoses connect, how do you open them up to pour the beer in?

Thanks again!

[JMcG]

The "homebrew" or "corny kegs" (for Cornelius MFG) have a lid which can be removed to fill and clean the keg. The beverage can be racked from the fermenter into the keg through the open lid or "jumped" from another keg (beverage out to beverage out) with minimal exposure to O2 using CO2 push. Transfers are best done after flushing the receiving keg with CO2. After transfer additional CO2 is used to further flush and then pressure seal the O-ring. Carbing is done by applying CO2 at appropriate pressure for temperature to attain the desired "volume" of CO2.
Check link
http://byo.com/stories/techniques/artic ... m-the-pros
jim

[mushhawk]

Thanks Jim! That helps a lot.
So with non-Corny Kegs, how do you fill them?

ie: If I had a 1/6th barrel boulevard keg, how would I refill it?

Thanks again guys! This info you've given me is very helpful already!

[Frank]

Kegging itself is an extensive topic in itself. Sounds to me like your in need of some basic resources. Check out these links and feel free to post some more specific questions.

Basic Outlines with Corny style kegs.
http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/Kegging.pdf
http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/l ... eming.html
http://handsonbrewing.com/brewers-refer ... s/kegging/

Cleaning and care for the above kegs.
http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/l ... ngsb1.html

[mushhawk]

Thanks again Frank!
You've been a great resource for 411 on kegging.
I really appreciate it!

One other kegging question.
Since the CO2 tank supplies carbonation in kegs vs bottling, do you need to add any priming sugar before pouring the beer into the keg?
If so, how much priming sugar do you use when keggin vs when you bottle the beer?
Also, do you leave it in the keg for the full 3 weeks or so, like you would with bottles or can the metal of the keg impart a metallic taste if it's in there for that long?

[Frank]

Since the CO2 tank supplies carbonation in kegs vs bottling, do you need to add any priming sugar before pouring the beer into the keg?

You don't have to use priming sugar, but you can. There are two basic methods to carbonation in a keg. "Force carbonation" which is using the CO2 bottle to "force" CO2 into suspension this is done by storing the full keg at 36 degrees F and applying ~10 PSI of CO2 for 2 to 3 weeks. "Natural carbonation" is just like bottle carbonation storing the keg at a reasonable fermentation temperature and adding corn sugar (priming sugar).

Both methods require specific calculations for what your desired "volumes" are. This is the volume (amount) of CO2 in suspension of the liquid, the average is 2.5 volumes. How this gets there is depended on 3 factors; Temperature, Pressure, and Volume. So for a constant desired volume of dissolved gas as the temperature of the liquid drops so must the pressure of the CO2. Here's a handy chart.
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

If so, how much priming sugar do you use when keggin vs when you bottle the beer?

When naturally carbonating a keg with corn sugar you need about half the amount by weight.

Also, do you leave it in the keg for the full 3 weeks or so, like you would with bottles or can the metal of the keg impart a metallic taste if it's in there for that long?

With either method letting the keg set for about 3 weeks is ideal. The kegs are all stainless steel and thus will not change the beer for even long term storage.

[mushhawk]

Thanks again for the info Frank.
I didn't realize that you had to have the beer under CO2 pressure for 3 weeks if carbonating it with a CO2 tank. I thought you just hooked it up to the CO2 just before drinking it.

If I naturally carbonate it with priming sugar, and then hook it up to a CO2 tank, will it over-carbonate?

Also, I don't quite understand the whole volumes calculation thing...

[Frank]

I didn't realize that you had to have the beer under CO2 pressure for 3 weeks if carbonating it with a CO2 tank. I thought you just hooked it up to the CO2 just before drinking it..

It takes some time for the beer to absorb the carbonation. That's what's happening with any carbonation technique is your forcing CO2 gas to be absorbed by the liquid.

If I naturally carbonate it with priming sugar, and then hook it up to a CO2 tank, will it over-carbonate?.

No it will not over carbonate provided that your regulator is set to the proper PSI. As per the chart and the explanation below.

Also, I don't quite understand the whole volumes calculation thing...

Volumes of a gas is a measure of how much gas you have, just like a Pint is how much liquid you have. It is not a measure of weight but how much space the gas takes up, it's measured in Liters in the metric system. Since gasses are compressible the volume of a gas changes under different pressures and/or temperatures with out physically having any more or less of that gas. Think of a spring when you squeeze it together it looks smaller but you don't have any less spring. So how this applies is we measure how much CO2 we have dissolved in the beer, the average is about 2.5 volumes. Since the volume of the gas changes as temperature changes you have to adjust the pressure the of gas in order to maintain a constant volume.

What you need to do is figure out the temperature your fridge that the beer is stored in. We will pretend it's 36 Fahrenheit. We'll also pretend that you want 2.47 volumes of gas in your beer. We go to this chart.
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php
On the left side we will go to the temperature (36) then trace that row right until we get to the desired volumes of CO2 (2.47), then follow that collum up to see what PSI we should set the regulator to. You should get 10.

All this being said it still sounds like you're trying to use priming sugar, and I say don't do it. For most beers, especially when starting out in the hobby, there is no benefit and only risks to naturally carbonating in the keg. Natural carbonation creates more yeast sediment in the keg which will lead to cloudy beer. It's difficult to fine tune things as there are more variables in the equation, such as yeast activity that itself is dependent on even more variables. I suggest getting everything figured out with a few variables first.

[mushhawk]

Thanks Frank.
I will take your advise and only carbonate with CO2 pressure then. I won't use priming sugar.

I understand the table now. Thanks for the clarification.
So, when pressure carbonating it, how do you know how long to do it?
Also, on the chart, do I pressurize it according to the temperature I plan to serve it at (36 degrees for example) or do I pressurize it at the temperature that it is at when pressurizing it (room temperature). Or does it have to be chilling when I'm pressurizing it?

And when serving the beer, at what pressure do you set the regulator?

Also, if anyone has a 10lb CO2 tank and regulator I can borrow for a couple weeks, that would save me a few bucks in equipment rental fees.
If anyone has a loaner, please let me know. Thanks!

[JMcG]

It is easier to carbonate your keg when it is cold because the CO2 is more soluble at lower temps (thus it takes lower pressure to become dissolved in the beer).
Once the beer is carbed, its carbed. That's why we talk about volumes of CO2 being dissolved in the beer, that's a measure that doesn't involve temperature or pressure. Once the beer has the appropriate volume of CO2 it can be served at whatever temp you like. Of course, serving too warm would not taste right and it would be foamy, just like opening a can or bottle of warm beer. The beer in that bottle/can was (presumably) appropriately carbed to the brewer's standard, and serving temp is the consumer's choice.
Pressure for serving depends on the system: length and diameter of the hose and temperature of the system. Basically just enough pressure to push the beer into your glass without too much foaming. The system we have for the Brew Fest is balanced for all these factors, but a home system could be very different.
Letting the keg sit for three weeks on CO2 at the pressure appropriate for the temperature (on the chart) is the ideal way to carb. There are ways to do it faster, but they are not quite as reliable. Carbing at room temp requires relatively high pressure (see chart). Your tank/regulator may not be able to reach that high a pressure if you try to carb too hot.
jim

[mushhawk]

Thanks again! I appreciate the info, once again.

This kegging process is a lot more hassle than I originally thought.
I'm going to try and get the kegorator set up in my garage this week. I originally hadn't planned to have the kegorator until the event I am using it for. I think I can get it early though...

[mushhawk]

So, just a quick clarification here....
I am going to put the beer in the keg today. I was able to get a 5lb CO2 tank that still shows 900psi for the total tank volume. I assume that's enough to get the beer carbonated and served...

So, just to make sure I'm reading this chart right:
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

If I carbonate with CO2 at room temp for a hefeweizen (which falls under the yellow "wheat beer" category) I should shoot for 2.60 volumes of CO2, which would put me around 30psi at room temp to properly charge it, right??

My brother who works for Standard Beverage might be able to get the kegerator for me Monday. Then I would drop it to around 12psi.

Am I right on all of this?
Thanks again!
I really appreciate it!

[JMcG]

Hefe's are in the yellow range, usually on the mid to upper end of the range, maybe 3-3.5 volumes. But, when you're carbing for Brewfest, keep it around 2.5-3.0. The system will be balanced for this level and we can't accommodate multiple different carbonation levels since we'll have all the beers hooked up to the same system.
Sounds like you're jumping in both feet.
jim